F-35 Lightning II developments

[Coati]

I certainly care! Thanks Tally!

[Wijgert IJlst]

Interesting (Dutch article) about the JSF and her alternatives:
http://www.nu.nl/politiek/3387149/genoe ... e-jsf.html

[Jmillsf18]

Interesting (Dutch article) about the JSF and her alternatives:
http://www.nu.nl/politiek/3387149/genoe ... e-jsf.html

Yeah maybe if you can freaking read Dutch.....

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[Hans Rolink]

Yeah maybe if you can freaking read Dutch.....

I don't blame you for not being able to.
http://translate.google.com/ gives a more than decent translation.

Hans.

[Flyboy]

Interesting (Dutch article) about the JSF and her alternatives:
http://www.nu.nl/politiek/3387149/genoe ... e-jsf.html

A pity though that the mentioned price of the F-35 is two to three times to low quoted according to the latest estimates. The information is not accurate in this respect which make me wonder about the other aircraft...

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[Richard from Rotterdam]

One fighter that is missing in all comparisons is the F-16. On the one hand I can imagine that Lockheed doesn't actively promote this to Western countries, only to the 3rd world these days, but the proposed F-16V would tick quite a few boxed I think. Especially with the Dutch minister of defence publicly stating that her doors (the ones to her ministry) are wide open for any fighter producing company to propose alternatives for the JSF.

[hammarö]

Cost of operation (Benchmarking).

Cost of operation is crusial. The investment is important, but most crusial is the cost of operation.

JAS39 Gripen cost about 5000 $ per hour to operate, but Eurofighter/Rafale about 20000 $ per hour and F-35 over 30000 $ per hour (not finished). Then the F-35 begins to operate becomes the cost of operations certainly higher, maybe around 40000 $ per hour (8 times higher than Gripen according Janes).

Janes have made a cost of the operation per hour for following aircraft.
(including all costs inclusive investment, equipment and fuel costs).

JAS39 Gripen 4700 $ / hour

Rafale 16500 $ / hour

Eurofighter 18000 $ / hour

F-35 21-31000 $ / hour (certainly higher then combat ready).

And the Russians have a couple of research projects with their radars to overcome the stealth solustions. (Look at Earth Goggle). See what happened with the F-117 after the Kosovo shut down.

[Flyboy]

One fighter that is missing in all comparisons is the F-16. On the one hand I can imagine that Lockheed doesn't actively promote this to Western countries, only to the 3rd world these days, but the proposed F-16V would tick quite a few boxed I think. Especially with the Dutch minister of defence publicly stating that her doors (the ones to her ministry) are wide open for any fighter producing company to propose alternatives for the JSF.

That is actually the most unbelievable part. She (the minister) claims that they need to make a "validated vision"on what the purpose of the armed forces is in the future and the role of the airforce. Depending on that they will state the requirements of the new jet. You bet that all the information given prior to that moment will be used to make a new monopoly for the F-35.

So First new "validated vision", Then requirement for new jets and after that the new proposals, If you jump in to early, youre scre...[censored]

[aviodromefriend]

You bet that all the information given prior to that moment will be used to make a new monopoly for the F-35.

Funny, my interpretation on the item from Nieuwsuur is that even the liberal party, the most staunch F-35 supporter in politics is creating an exit out of the JSF program right now, stating that it will never accept the other services having to suffer from any fighter purchase.

[Coati]

Cost of operation (Benchmarking).

Cost of operation is crusial. The investment is important, but most crusial is the cost of operation.

JAS39 Gripen cost about 5000 $ per hour to operate, but Eurofighter/Rafale about 20000 $ per hour and F-35 over 30000 $ per hour (not finished). Then the F-35 begins to operate becomes the cost of operations certainly higher, maybe around 40000 $ per hour (8 times higher than Gripen according Janes).

Janes have made a cost of the operation per hour for following aircraft.
(including all costs inclusive investment, equipment and fuel costs).

JAS39 Gripen 4700 $ / hour

Rafale 16500 $ / hour

Eurofighter 18000 $ / hour

F-35 21-31000 $ / hour (certainly higher then combat ready).

And the Russians have a couple of research projects with their radars to overcome the stealth solustions. (Look at Earth Goggle). See what happened with the F-117 after the Kosovo shut down.

This subject actually belongs in the praethuys section, but the numbers you are showing are not comparable.

From F-16.net (with thanks to "m") about your stated numbers from Janes: Know the figures by Janes, but these figures give no indication at all what a jet really costs per flying hour. Cost per flying hour will differ by country as well .. personnel costs, taxes etc.

Calculated the rough Swiss figures for a Gripen E, some $27,000 per flying hour in percentages. As well compared these figures in same percentages with the cost of a F16 MLU / RNLAF & BAF (Theoretically .. different countries).
Cost per flying hour US 16C/D: some $23,000 per flying hour

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopi ... t-165.html

It looks like the same discussion about combat radius, in which Saab claims a very lage radius, but it turned out to be for a A2A mission with a huge belly tank.

Your claims about Russians overcoming stealth is obviously propaganda, please explain why they are trying to build their own stealth aircraft when this is a dead end anyway.

[Coati]

You bet that all the information given prior to that moment will be used to make a new monopoly for the F-35.

Funny, my interpretation on the item from Nieuwsuur is that even the liberal party, the most staunch F-35 supporter in politics is creating an exit out of the JSF program right now, stating that it will never accept the other services having to suffer from any fighter purchase.

I think it is a reality check for the complete fighter purchase. The amount of money reserved fro the purchase is never enough for a substantial number of fighters. 4.5B euros? With the latest price known from the Korean fighter competition (144 million euro per F-35A as an export price for aircraft, spares, sims etc) that will be sufficient for 31 aircraft. But also with the other types more than 45 aircraft at the max will not fit, since all fighters purchases will be in the range of 100-150 M per aircraft when looking at the total price (and not flyaway costs or unit costs or whatever).

Please keep the subject to JSF developments instead of discussing.

[aviodromefriend]

Please keep the subject to JSF developments instead of discussing.

Forum for news and discussions on miltary aviation matters.

(bold edited by me)

[Flyboy]

You bet that all the information given prior to that moment will be used to make a new monopoly for the F-35.

Funny, my interpretation on the item from Nieuwsuur is that even the liberal party, the most staunch F-35 supporter in politics is creating an exit out of the JSF program right now, stating that it will never accept the other services having to suffer from any fighter purchase.

The number of 30 F-35's is what Clingendeal mentioned the maximum the Netherlands could purchase without compromising other armed forves. The VVD is in favour of purchasing these 30 this year. Very convenient if you can rule out competitors based on specs that they provide before the official requirement is send out. Mind the very sttong lobby of the Dutch industry!!!

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[Richard from Rotterdam]

According to the latest figures, of the 4.5 billion euro that was reserved for the JSF purchase by the Netherlands, only 4,05 Billion is still available. Put against the currently known "price" for the F-35, this means that only 27 can be purchased.

[Piet Luijken]

Well, we already have two jsfs so 28 will be enough.

If we spend less on the jsf, will thus influence the orders for stork?

If we buy another aircraft, what will happen with stork?

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