"Sie hatten die POL-Route gewählt und erreichten nach acht Stunden bei 9 luftbetankungen unseren Platz."
Yeah right... It is approximately 11.800 kilometers from Hokkaido to Pferdsfeld when one keeps out of Soviet airspace. So that makes for a seriously longer flight than 'just' eight hours. Would this post have been a poll, I'd voted for "hoax". Japanese crews at Pferdsfeld however I can believe.
Finally evidence of Japanese F-4EJ's in Germany, 80-ties
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Re: Finally evidence of Japanese F-4EJ's in Germany, 80-ties
== All is well, as long as we keep spinning ==
Re: Finally evidence of Japanese F-4EJ's in Germany, 80-ties
Hello,
I am doing this hobby since early 1982, and doo remember the exitement when those rumours came allong with the "famous" SGS group at Soesterberg, however..... there was only some rumours and we all never believed them. But, those speculations continue all the time and I think it's hard to belief that this deployement ever happened. However, we have to remind that spotting in those early 1980's was not common at a German air force base!!! When I got my first visits to Geman airfield I caught several times by German police for making notes.
I still have many doubts about this matter, but there is still 1% left that tells it could not be impossible.....
Of course, like you all..... more pictures or any other official news would be nice.
Trueno
I am doing this hobby since early 1982, and doo remember the exitement when those rumours came allong with the "famous" SGS group at Soesterberg, however..... there was only some rumours and we all never believed them. But, those speculations continue all the time and I think it's hard to belief that this deployement ever happened. However, we have to remind that spotting in those early 1980's was not common at a German air force base!!! When I got my first visits to Geman airfield I caught several times by German police for making notes.
I still have many doubts about this matter, but there is still 1% left that tells it could not be impossible.....
Of course, like you all..... more pictures or any other official news would be nice.
Trueno
"Rejoice O young man in thy youth..."
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doubleugly
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Re: Finally evidence of Japanese F-4EJ's in Germany, 80-ties
good morning to you all,
air-air refuelling with the japanese was indeed possible in 1984:
a quote from a book on the japanese f-4's: On 20 February 1982 the Jasdf announced an upgrade programme or SLEP of the F-4EJ to extend the multirole capabilities. Amongst radar modigifcations etc and the use of new missiles, it also included the altering of the aerial refuelling to allow to receipt of fuel in flight!So the Japanese could finally use the stored kits by Mitsubishi, who bought the additional hardware in the past to allow inflight-refuelling.
air-air refuelling with the japanese was indeed possible in 1984:
a quote from a book on the japanese f-4's: On 20 February 1982 the Jasdf announced an upgrade programme or SLEP of the F-4EJ to extend the multirole capabilities. Amongst radar modigifcations etc and the use of new missiles, it also included the altering of the aerial refuelling to allow to receipt of fuel in flight!So the Japanese could finally use the stored kits by Mitsubishi, who bought the additional hardware in the past to allow inflight-refuelling.
Re: Finally evidence of Japanese F-4EJ's in Germany, 80-ties
Doubleugly,
I don't want to get you out of your dream, but in 1982 is was decided that the Japanese F-4's were going to be upgraded.
The SLEP aka KAI prototype flew for, as Hans already wrote, the first time in July 1984. So this is after the so called visit to Germany and the 434 of the photo was NOT the prototype.
Fred
I don't want to get you out of your dream, but in 1982 is was decided that the Japanese F-4's were going to be upgraded.
The SLEP aka KAI prototype flew for, as Hans already wrote, the first time in July 1984. So this is after the so called visit to Germany and the 434 of the photo was NOT the prototype.
Fred
Re: Finally evidence of Japanese F-4EJ's in Germany, 80-ties
doubleugly wrote:
air-air refuelling with the japanese was indeed possible in 1984:
Answers will be questioned.....
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Redskin
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Re: Finally evidence of Japanese F-4EJ's in Germany, 80-ties
As said before by many air to air refueling was not available at that time for the japanese F4's. Besides that IF it would be possible they were not allowed to cross there borders due to a law at that time (see previous post). I believe that law was changed during the first or second gulf war.doubleugly wrote:good morning to you all,
air-air refuelling with the japanese was indeed possible in 1984:
a quote from a book on the japanese f-4's: On 20 February 1982 the Jasdf announced an upgrade programme or SLEP of the F-4EJ to extend the multirole capabilities. Amongst radar modigifcations etc and the use of new missiles, it also included the altering of the aerial refuelling to allow to receipt of fuel in flight!So the Japanese could finally use the stored kits by Mitsubishi, who bought the additional hardware in the past to allow inflight-refuelling.
John
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doubleugly
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Re: Finally evidence of Japanese F-4EJ's in Germany, 80-ties
scuderia,
TAM 1984 where the japanese participated in together with their german collegues, was in June/July I believe. so not the prototype but 434 seemed also to have been modified by that time.!
TAM 1984 where the japanese participated in together with their german collegues, was in June/July I believe. so not the prototype but 434 seemed also to have been modified by that time.!
Re: Finally evidence of Japanese F-4EJ's in Germany, 80-ties
Doubleugly,
I think you are twisting the facts so you still believe this story
The so called deployment of the Japanese F-4EJ's to Germany "was" according "the evidence" in January of a not mentioned year, but a Japanese delegation visited Germany in the autumn of 1982, so it's to believed that it "happend" in 1983 or 1984. First Modified F-4EKAI flew the July 17th, 1984, the TAM was from June 22th till July 4th 1984. Maybe, but again I find this hard to believe, a japanese delegation visited the TAM'84 and some officers Germany but without ther F-4EJ's
Fred
I think you are twisting the facts so you still believe this story
The so called deployment of the Japanese F-4EJ's to Germany "was" according "the evidence" in January of a not mentioned year, but a Japanese delegation visited Germany in the autumn of 1982, so it's to believed that it "happend" in 1983 or 1984. First Modified F-4EKAI flew the July 17th, 1984, the TAM was from June 22th till July 4th 1984. Maybe, but again I find this hard to believe, a japanese delegation visited the TAM'84 and some officers Germany but without ther F-4EJ's
Fred
Re: Finally evidence of Japanese F-4EJ's in Germany, 80-ties
doubleugly, I do really hope that your story is true. However, facts are:
* Japanese aircraft were, by Japanese law, not allowed to cross the Japanese border prior to 1992;
* the first 'production' F-4EJ Kai was delivered in 1991;
* prior to 1991, seeing other F-4EJ Kai aircraft would be limited to the prototype, which is not the aircraft shown on the picture;
* the flight from Hokkaido to Pferdsfeld over the North Pole takes about 12000km, which is 13-14 hours in cruise mode. A ferry this long itself is worthy of a big and lengthy article in any Western magazine;
* without the A/A capability, the aircraft should have made numerous stopovers and were probably not able to reach the US safely (the island Wake is only just within reach for a regular F-4E, then a transit to Hawaii, then onwards to CONUS), necessitating a route through Asia and the Middle East (they could have picked up the alleged Israeli F-4 here, though
);
* the nomen Polar Route has been in use since Japanese and European civil operators were allowed to cross Soviet airspace to shorten the travel between Europe and Japan. As such, there is no "die Pol Route" for military aircraft as stated by the article;
* Photoshop is relatively new, but it used to be common to alter photographs in such a way that people never existed, or that weapons seemingly are in places where they in reality have never been;
* Germans have a sense of humour too!
I could therefore come to only two options:
1. looking at the way the Germans have been able to paint their Phantoms: a regular Pferdsfeld jet was turned into a Japanese one?
2. it is a very interesting hoax.
* Japanese aircraft were, by Japanese law, not allowed to cross the Japanese border prior to 1992;
* the first 'production' F-4EJ Kai was delivered in 1991;
* prior to 1991, seeing other F-4EJ Kai aircraft would be limited to the prototype, which is not the aircraft shown on the picture;
* the flight from Hokkaido to Pferdsfeld over the North Pole takes about 12000km, which is 13-14 hours in cruise mode. A ferry this long itself is worthy of a big and lengthy article in any Western magazine;
* without the A/A capability, the aircraft should have made numerous stopovers and were probably not able to reach the US safely (the island Wake is only just within reach for a regular F-4E, then a transit to Hawaii, then onwards to CONUS), necessitating a route through Asia and the Middle East (they could have picked up the alleged Israeli F-4 here, though
);* the nomen Polar Route has been in use since Japanese and European civil operators were allowed to cross Soviet airspace to shorten the travel between Europe and Japan. As such, there is no "die Pol Route" for military aircraft as stated by the article;
* Photoshop is relatively new, but it used to be common to alter photographs in such a way that people never existed, or that weapons seemingly are in places where they in reality have never been;
* Germans have a sense of humour too!
I could therefore come to only two options:
1. looking at the way the Germans have been able to paint their Phantoms: a regular Pferdsfeld jet was turned into a Japanese one?
2. it is a very interesting hoax.
== All is well, as long as we keep spinning ==
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Paul van der Linden
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Re: Finally evidence of Japanese F-4EJ's in Germany, 80-ties
Hi Doubleugly,doubleugly wrote:scuderia,
TAM 1984 where the japanese participated in together with their german collegues, was in June/July I believe. so not the prototype but 434 seemed also to have been modified by that time.!
Nope, the first Kai Phantom for an operational unit was not delivered before the early 1990s. 302 Hikotai did not operate the Kai Phantom in 1984 nor did any other JASDF unit. There were for sure no JASDF Phantoms at Gilze Rijen TAM '84 and also very narrow eyed people in German Phantoms would have drawn some attention!
The German article with the picture says "fur ein Anfang April geplantes "Tactical Air Meet 1984" in Holland". TAM '84 was at Gilze Rijen from 23-6 till 5-7 so I would not be surprised that this is the clue for the best 1 April joke in history. Someone in Germany must be killing himself when he hears that their 1 April joke is still alive after 25 years!
Greetings, Paul
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Hans Rolink
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Re: Finally evidence of Japanese F-4EJ's in Germany, 80-ties
Indeed, well said Pjotrtje. That is a good way to sum things up. It simply can't be true. Not politically, not technically.
Flying from Japan to Western Europe could only be done in two ways for a tactical aircraft, across South Asia encountering numerous Soviet client states (Vietnam, Cambodja, Burma, Iran, Iraq, Syria) or neutrals leaning towards the Soviets (Bangladesh, India) or across North America. But just look at the map. The first stretch from Chitose to Alaska is a big leap with a theoretical stop at Shemya or Dutch Harbor. Then onwards through Canada (Comox, Cold Lake, Bagotville and/or Goose Bay), Greenland, Keflavik (Iceland), Lossiemouth, propably Coningsby or even Leeuwarden before arriving at Pferdsfeld. All this without anyone seeing it? Come on!
The Asian route would have been impossible to get diplomatic clearances for because of all the Soviet client states en route.
AA Refuelling was NOT and I say again NOT possible. For political reasons the receptacles were deactivated and only with the Kai programme were they reinstated. The Japanese only recently got their first KC-767 tankers after considerable political wrangling in the Diet (the Japanese parliament). The route across the Pacific is even more hazardous through the complete lack of diversion airfields.
I am sorry, but you have been had. And like Paul said, I would love to be a fly on the wall in the office of that German guy who started this joke all those years ago because he must be laughing his ass off now.
Hans.
Flying from Japan to Western Europe could only be done in two ways for a tactical aircraft, across South Asia encountering numerous Soviet client states (Vietnam, Cambodja, Burma, Iran, Iraq, Syria) or neutrals leaning towards the Soviets (Bangladesh, India) or across North America. But just look at the map. The first stretch from Chitose to Alaska is a big leap with a theoretical stop at Shemya or Dutch Harbor. Then onwards through Canada (Comox, Cold Lake, Bagotville and/or Goose Bay), Greenland, Keflavik (Iceland), Lossiemouth, propably Coningsby or even Leeuwarden before arriving at Pferdsfeld. All this without anyone seeing it? Come on!
The Asian route would have been impossible to get diplomatic clearances for because of all the Soviet client states en route.
AA Refuelling was NOT and I say again NOT possible. For political reasons the receptacles were deactivated and only with the Kai programme were they reinstated. The Japanese only recently got their first KC-767 tankers after considerable political wrangling in the Diet (the Japanese parliament). The route across the Pacific is even more hazardous through the complete lack of diversion airfields.
I am sorry, but you have been had. And like Paul said, I would love to be a fly on the wall in the office of that German guy who started this joke all those years ago because he must be laughing his ass off now.
Hans.
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Canberra TT.18
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Re: Finally evidence of Japanese F-4EJ's in Germany, 80-ties
Great story , with a lot of questions to be asked. .
Explicit under the photo is revered to the blowing up of the Pferdsfelder church. which took place on: "Am 26. Januar 1984 um halb zwei nachmittags wird der evangelische Kirchturm von Pferdsfeld gesprengt." January 26th 1984. So the article is most probably from after January 1984. (and before april 1984.)
About the picture: The hard shadows, straight under the aircraft are rather strange for January. And the positioning of the two Phantom’s look in a way odd, in perspective.
Also why would air defence F-4EJ go to Fighter bomber base and not JG71 or JG74? Anyone?
The article also says that the aircraft returned after one week. The return flight was over Goose Bay, that looks like much longer than 8 hours flight. And than the pilots returned to take part in the TAM some 8 weeks later. With which aircraft did they fly then. I'm pretty sure not with F-4EJ and probably not with F-4F’s as these are different aircraft in some ways, is my guess. So anyone at Gilze saw Japanese’s pilots in 1984.
And than there is politics, not only Japanese law forbid actions abroad in that time. But also international politics, 1984 was still in the middle of the cold war. Andropov was leader of the USSR and Reagan in the USA. It was only after Gorbatsjov in 1985 came to power that the relations between west and east was warming up.
Just to mention: In September 1983 a Korean B.747 was shot down over the USSR, killing all 269 on board, because the Soviet thought it was a espionage aircraft. So sending F-4’s over the pole, with the USSR being the one of the only diversion place, would be very dangerous and out of the order.
Pieter
Explicit under the photo is revered to the blowing up of the Pferdsfelder church. which took place on: "Am 26. Januar 1984 um halb zwei nachmittags wird der evangelische Kirchturm von Pferdsfeld gesprengt." January 26th 1984. So the article is most probably from after January 1984. (and before april 1984.)
About the picture: The hard shadows, straight under the aircraft are rather strange for January. And the positioning of the two Phantom’s look in a way odd, in perspective.
Also why would air defence F-4EJ go to Fighter bomber base and not JG71 or JG74? Anyone?
The article also says that the aircraft returned after one week. The return flight was over Goose Bay, that looks like much longer than 8 hours flight. And than the pilots returned to take part in the TAM some 8 weeks later. With which aircraft did they fly then. I'm pretty sure not with F-4EJ and probably not with F-4F’s as these are different aircraft in some ways, is my guess. So anyone at Gilze saw Japanese’s pilots in 1984.
And than there is politics, not only Japanese law forbid actions abroad in that time. But also international politics, 1984 was still in the middle of the cold war. Andropov was leader of the USSR and Reagan in the USA. It was only after Gorbatsjov in 1985 came to power that the relations between west and east was warming up.
Just to mention: In September 1983 a Korean B.747 was shot down over the USSR, killing all 269 on board, because the Soviet thought it was a espionage aircraft. So sending F-4’s over the pole, with the USSR being the one of the only diversion place, would be very dangerous and out of the order.
Indeed it is funny that beginning April is mentioned, where as the TAM took place later that year. This can't be without purpose. So what a small article in a small magazine can do after 25 years!!! Very funny.Paul van der Linden wrote:The German article with the picture says "fur ein Anfang April geplantes "Tactical Air Meet 1984" in Holland". TAM '84 was at Gilze Rijen from 23-6 till 5-7 so I would not be surprised that this is the clue for the best 1 April joke in history. Someone in Germany must be killing himself when he hears that their 1 April joke is still alive after 25 years!
Pieter
/jasdf.gif)
Re: Finally evidence of Japanese F-4EJ's in Germany, 80-ties
Hi,
Just one more; Donny Chan posted interesting thoughts on the Japanese text here:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showth ... ost1436991" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Just one more; why include the item in the Schinderhannes once and not in all base booklets, airshow programs, etc.?
Regards,
Stefan
Just one more; Donny Chan posted interesting thoughts on the Japanese text here:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showth ... ost1436991" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Just one more; why include the item in the Schinderhannes once and not in all base booklets, airshow programs, etc.?
Regards,
Stefan
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Polecat
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Re: Finally evidence of Japanese F-4EJ's in Germany, 80-ties
this is sooo funny.. who say's Germans have no sense of humor....
It might not be Monty Python's "deadly joke", but is sure one of the longest lasting ones!!
It might not be Monty Python's "deadly joke", but is sure one of the longest lasting ones!!
I have never drunk milk, and I never will . . . .