Finally evidence of Japanese F-4EJ's in Germany, 80-ties

Hans Rolink · Post by **Hans Rolink** » 19 Jul 2009, 11:01

Here they are:

Hans.

Post by **ebauer** » 19 Jul 2009, 11:11

THANKS! That's what a lot of people were waiting for, I guess!

Too bad, that the Japanese crews didn't show up with their magnificent F-4EJ's at the TAM'84 at Gilze....

Sayonara!

Hans Rolink · Post by **Hans Rolink** » 19 Jul 2009, 11:19

Do you believe all that Ernesto? Pity the magazine doesn't have a date like April 1, 1984.... I would like to see a photocopy like this of the next issue, explaining the joke.

Serious, Japanese Phantoms only got their air-to-air refuelling capability installed after the KAI upgrades of the late 1980's. The prototype flew AFTER the purported visit in the summer of 1984. See AFM March 2000. I looked it up.
Without air refuelling it would be quite difficult to do this unseen, as a flight had to be routed from Japan through Alaska, Canada/Northern USA, Greenland, Iceland and Scotland to our part of the world. And all of this without a single spotter seeing it and sending a report with pictures to BAR, MAR, Scramble or whatever magazine?
You were "active" just like me in those days. Do you remember anything of it?

Hans.

Post by **ebauer** » 19 Jul 2009, 11:22

TRUE, nevertheless the info wasn't that good in the early eighties...

I presume it will remain a mystery, or as we call it a 'broodje aap'

blu109 · Post by **blu109** » 19 Jul 2009, 11:29

It seems that there are some spotters who look like derek ogilvie, Because they know everything

And why cant this be thrue? It seems that these page's are very hard proof of the story.

joost · Post by **joost** » 19 Jul 2009, 11:43

blu109 wrote:It seems that there are some spotters who look like derek ogilvie, Because they know everything
And why cant this be thrue? It seems that these page's are very hard proof of the story.

One reason might be that for most of the post-war period the forces were confined to the islands of Japan and not permitted to be deployed abroad!
Things changed during the 90's I believe...

Just a Thought

evhest · Post by **evhest** » 19 Jul 2009, 11:44

blu109 wrote: And why cant this be thrue?

Did you read all of the above posts? There are about a dozen reasons why this can't be true. The picture doesn't convince me a single bit.

Just imagine the political uproar this would have caused. The former evil axis of World War decide to meet and be friends again! Wow, imagine the headlines! There would have been no way of keeping this secret without the possibility of air to air refuelling. As stated above Japanese Phantoms didn't have that capability at that time. It's a FACT. They would have had to land several times in several countries and that would have caused a lot of interest and comments. That didn't happen....

To anyone convinced that Japanese Spooks were in germany; hey, good for you!

ehusmann · Post by **ehusmann** » 19 Jul 2009, 11:51

evhest wrote:Just imagine the political uproar this would have caused. The former evil axis of World War decide to meet and be friends again! Wow, imagine the headlines!

I don't know if this is actually a strong argument. Maybe directly after the war, but not anymore in the 80-ies. Both countries changed dramatically from there war hunger pasts and both had long been integrated into the western communities.

evhest wrote:There would have been no way of keeping this secret without the possibility of air to air refuelling. As stated above Japanese Phantoms didn't have that capability at that time. It's a FACT. They would have had to land several times in several countries and that would have caused a lot of interest and comments. That didn't happen....

This however is something different. If indeed there was no single Japanese Phantom capable of A-to-A refuelling, it at least makes the article as posted wrong.

Erwin

evhest · Post by **evhest** » 19 Jul 2009, 11:58

A bit of Google produced:

The first F-4EJ Kai flew on July 17, 1984, and the 306th Hikotai accepted its first example on November 24, 1989.

Now, anyone for the serial of that first F-4EJ Kai? Was it 434, as seen in the picture?

Hans Rolink · Post by **Hans Rolink** » 19 Jul 2009, 12:03

evhest wrote:A bit of Google produced:

The first F-4EJ Kai flew on July 17, 1984, and the 306th Hikotai accepted its first example on November 24, 1989.

Now, anyone for the serial of that first F-4EJ Kai? Was it 434, as seen in the picture?

Prototype was 07-8431 (AFM March 2000, p.79).

Hans.

Hans Rolink · Post by **Hans Rolink** » 19 Jul 2009, 12:20

blu109 wrote:It seems that there are some spotters who look like derek ogilvie, Because they know everything
And why cant this be thrue? It seems that these page's are very hard proof of the story.

I am not saying I know everything, I just reason logically.
I also sense a deep rooted desire to see Japanese Phantoms or a regret to have missed them.
Well, it still is not too late. on http://www.klm.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; one can purchase a ticket to Tokyo, Phantom haven Hyakuri is only a two hours drive away. I wanted to see JASDF Phantoms, so I went.
What are you waiting for?

Hans.

Arjan · Post by **Arjan** » 19 Jul 2009, 14:11

Indeed, very interesting pictures and they seem to prove it. However, I still keep an uneasy feeling about the whole story. One is also, if you want to prove that those Phantoms are AAR capable, why do you want to put this to test on the Polar route in the middle of the winter. If the system fails and those guys had to punch out, they would bail out in an area where you have the least sunshine possible, zub zero temperatures and not to speak a terrible weathersystem.

I love the idea of Japanese Phantoms in Germany but it still doesn't really do it for me.

Paul van der Linden · Post by **Paul van der Linden** » 19 Jul 2009, 15:21

I am convinced that this is not true but what intrigues me is what the source for this rumour is. I know that also back in 1984 there were a number of well informed German spotters who, no doubt, would have spread the news (possibly afterwards) about this deployment. However it is obvious that there is someone who has put in a lot of effort to make us believe that the deployment actually took place!

Also the book "Die Verbande der Bundesluftwaffe" from Frank and Bernd Vetter mentiones the deployment.

I asked a Japanese friend to translate the Japanese text so I keep you posted!

Regards, Paul

Richard from Rotterdam · Post by **Richard from Rotterdam** » 19 Jul 2009, 16:05

It doesnt prove much, all the text in the article is written in such a way that it is to prove the story.

I would love to see a proper translation of the Japanese writing in the "einsatzbefehl" as it looks very much copied straight out of a Kokufan Magazine article about the F-4E Phantom...

Stefan · Post by **Stefan** » 19 Jul 2009, 16:24

So, this one is for real as well?

As far as I am concerned, I think we all know it is NOT true but we are put off just a little bit because of the persistency of the rumour.

Regards,
Stefan

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