MH17 from AMS to KUL down in Ukraine

[frank kramer]

Ab, this is (also) a matter of definition. An aircraft is considered to have departed once it's off the gate. That is something different than the actual take-off time. In this case, MAS17 was off the gate at 12.15 local time but took off from rwy 36C at 12.31lt. Also, it did obviously not take off with its cruise speed, but somewhere between 200-300kmh. It also takes some time to get up to cruise speed and altitude. Generally, climb out is in the region of 500 kmh for some time. Furthermore, there's no telling if the aircraft flew at the advertised cruise speed or was slower (ie because of headwinds). Unfortunately, the one thing one cannot doubt is that it ended up at the wrong location at the wrong moment.

[ehusmann]

Nu.nl from the beginnning has mentioned 15.15 and that's also the time I got from radar links posted on A.net (though cannot find that anymore in the 4 threads).

Erwin

[Key]

Several airlines that have been tracked over Ukraine as late as yesterday, claim they have been avoiding Ukraine for months.
We will not name any airlines now, but we think that an airline concerned about its safety reputation should not lie to customers.

ADS-B and quality web services have quite an impact on the aviation world. Finnair was one of the above, but has apologized for the misinformation.

Meanwhile, persons on the ground are changing about anything possible on the crash site before independent investigators can even get to it. Theoretically, this could even include removing tell-tale parts of the wreckage.

A tragedy of all sorts, is what this is.
Erik

[frank kramer]

Footage released by Ukrainian authorities reported to be a Buk missile system being transported on a low-loader yesterday with two missiles missing:

http://www.telegraaf.nl/tv/nieuws/buite ... en___.html

[hammarö]

Map of Eastern Ukraine showing the Malasian flight crash area.

http://www.sydsvenskan.se/varlden/ryssl ... -sin-roll/

The dotted line is the route of the flight.
The red circle is the crash area with most debris from the aircraft.
The red area is the area covered by the Russian separtists.
The black circle is the Buk range. Whole Buk range is covered by separatist control area. This means lesser probably that it is a Ukrainan Buk, since the separatists must try to destroy or take it. They now have Grad Russian heavy missiles.

[Thijs]

Please stay on-topic and post only relevant information.

This topic is not meant to be to give any political statement our share your opinion. For this we have the tattle lounge.

Some posts in this topic are already on the "edge".

Any further postings which are not relevant or political statements will be moved to the tattle lounge without a notice.

Thijs

[jeroenvn]

The first test flight was on: 17/07/1997,
the crash was on 07/17/2014,
he flew exactly 17 years,
and its last flight was MH17.
All with 17.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[camel1]

http://nos.nl/artikel/677155-militaire- ... rlijk.html

Would this be a possibility?

(Sorry, in dutch only)

[ehusmann]

No, it is not. The only likely outcome of that, is that Russia will beat us to it and will use the threat of military action from the West as an excuse to invade Ukraine in force. That would be the least favourable option at the moment as it would surely guarantee no access to the site anymore and likely a full scale war.

Erwin

[Arjan]

And even if the Russians stay out of the area, the rebels will feel threatened and most likely start a counter-action. There will not be much left to investigate when the crash site are being bombarded with artillery.

Maybe some special forces action to snatch some responsible leaders, but if that is a really wise decision?

[Stratofreighter]

Indeed yesterday evening suddenly the link

http://www.spitsnieuws.nl/archives/buit ... vasie-voor

popped up in all kinds of places on the internet. A bit far-fetched...

'Nederland en VS bereiden invasie voor'


Mark Rutte mag voor de buitenwacht Vladimir Poetin nog een diplomatieke handreiking hebben gedaan, achter de schermen wordt samen met de Verenigde Staten een plan B gesmeed. Dat melden bronnen van Spitsnieuws.nl in Polen, die dichtbij de Amerikaanse ambassade staan.

Op zo’n twintig kilometer van de Poolse hoofdstad Warschau bereiden Nederlandse, maar vooral Amerikaanse, militairen zich volgens onze bronnen voor op een invasie in het gebied waar donderdag de brokstukken van vlucht MH17 van Malaysia Airlines neerkwamen. Daarbij kunnen eventueel ook Nederlandse F16’s worden ingezet, deze voeren normaal gesproken patrouillevluchten boven de Baltische staten uit. Zowel de Nederlandse als de Amerikaanse autoriteiten hebben zich tot nu toe nog niet geuit over een plan B.

Plan B
Zowel premier Mark Rutte als minister van Buitenlandse Zaken Frans Timmermans gaven vanmiddag afzonderlijk van elkaar aan de situatie rondom het neergestorte vliegtuig in het oosten van Oekraïne via diplomatieke weg op te willen lossen. Ondertussen zou dus ook al aan een plan B gewerkt worden.

Een militaire actie klinkt niet heel ongeloofwaardig na de felle bewoordingen waarin president Barack Obama zich gisteravond uitsprak. Aangenomen mag worden dat zodra Washington voldoende aanleiding heeft, de crash site door militairen zal worden ingenomen, afgeschermd en de plunderende separatisten worden ingerekend. Vervolgens kan normaal, onafhankelijk onderzoek worden verricht en de stoffelijke overschotten van de inzittenden van de rampvlucht op correcte wijze worden geborgen.

UPDATE 20 juli 0:24 De VS heeft Oekraïne, Georgië en Moldavië een major non-NATO ally status toegekend. Uitwisseling van militaire assistentie, waaronder afweersystemen en klein geschut, en intelligentie moet daarmee makkelijker worden.

text above no longer available through http://www.spitsnieuws.nl/archives/buit ... vasie-voor ,
"pass-word protected" now.

[Stratofreighter]

http://nos.nl/artikel/677183-rebellenle ... dozen.html
has a picture of an "orange box" now.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28389991

Speaking in Donetsk, the biggest rebel-held city in the east, rebel political leader Alexander Borodai said his forces had brought the plane's "black boxes" to the city and he was supervising them personally.

[Paveway]

What additional info will be gained from the 'black box' (apart from the technical data of the aircraft)? It's already known that the crash was induced by missile impact not by technical malfunction...
The black box will probably show that all systems were operating correctly prior impact...also no report from the crew that something was wrong with the aircraft.
Unfortunately, the black box does not indicate that the aircraft was hit by SAM...

[camel1]

What additional info will be gained from the 'black box' (apart from the technical data of the aircraft)? It's already known that the crash was induced by missile impact not by technical malfunction...
The black box will probably show that all systems were operating correctly prior impact...also no report from the crew that something was wrong with the aircraft.
Unfortunately, the black box does not indicate that the aircraft was hit by SAM...

Maybe the pilots saw the missile coming? You never know. Maybe they knew what hit them and saw it all happening. Maybe a shout from the pilot: 'we have been hit by something'. Than we know for shore, than there is that little piece of evidence they need.

Maybe, maybe. You never know....................

[Paveway]

And then still no evidence WHO launched the missile(s)?
Unfortunately, a lot of uncertainty with this tragedy...