F-35 Lightning II developments

[Pete]

Closing Leeuwarden would be a very bad idea. Even with a lower number of aircraft, we do need a second MOB. Just in case.....

I agree but I am not a politician. And taking into consideration the Kunduz agreements i could name a few other very bad ideas. Thats why they would like to keep things in house untill after the elections.

Regards Pete

[Coati]

Closing a MOB is not a bad idea, it saves a lot of money actually...as long as a few reserve airbases are available there is no real problem.

But looking at the "news", I don't think this is actually news. I know people at the MoD are studying all kinds of reductions and base closures plus cooperation, but as far as I am aware, options are worked on, and nothing is decided. Given the fact that we have to wait till elections, no decision is expected anyway, and it is up to a new coalition to decide what to do with Leeuwarden and the JSF. (Or maybe they will consider closing Volkel, who knows, Leeuwarden is always pointed at, but Volkel is less optimal situated to the TRAs and the future planned CBA land).

Everybody knows that the KLu will not be able to get 85 airframes of whatever type. So this "leaked" news is nothing other then the already known issues. Same counts for the transport fleet and Eindhoven: all options are being studied (including basing aircraft in other countries) but again, no decisions yet.

[SquAdmin]

Closing Leeuwarden would be a very bad idea. Even with a lower number of aircraft, we do need a second MOB. Just in case.....

Why would we need that? If there are only 42 aircraft left in the inventory, with a part of them permanently in the US and another part under maintenance, there will only be two squadrons left in the Netherlands.

[Wildpicture]

Closing Leeuwarden would be a very bad idea. Even with a lower number of aircraft, we do need a second MOB. Just in case.....

Why would we need that? If there are only 42 aircraft left in the inventory, with a part of them permanently in the US and another part under maintenance, there will only be two squadrons left in the Netherlands.

Looking at numbers (42) alone would support the idea of only one base. But we do need a second base as back up. Never put all your eggs in one basket. It is a vital defence argument that you have at least one reserve base with all infrastructure at hand. Besides that it would make sense to have such a base even in a situation of "perfect rest". Where would you go if there is maintenance to be done on the only base? And why concentrate all noise in just one spot? The air force needs a second base to which they can switch if needed. Defence planning requires thinking in decades. When we bought the F-16 nobody forsaw the falling of the iron curtain and dropping the number of F-16's from over two hundred to the present 60 or so. Developments could evolve in the other direction too. Creating a new base when the need arises is extremely difficult, costly and time consuming. So we better think twice (or better even more) before desinvesting such priceless infrastructure.

[Gast]

Indeed this is not really “news”. This plan is logically derived from the now failed "Catshuishoverleg". This plan is just one of the unused plans of the Spring (Kunduz) agreement and is still ready to be used. It amazes me that the message source of this article on Scramble nothing mentions about any further plans. The plans go much further for the Dutch MOD! Altogether Henk and Ingrid are 100% in sense when it comes to the defense budget (their election program). Social, isn’t it! And there again the next government will do a little extra reducing together with the unused plans..... For about the JSF, still very uncertain even when the F16 fleet will be reduced.

[Rockville]

The Dutch newspaper "Ref. Dagblad" picked up the story and now the Dutch Mod strongly denies those plans. Makes one wonder why the Dutch Mod denies plans made up by political parties.

[Coati]

The Dutch newspaper "Ref. Dagblad" picked up the story and now the Dutch Mod strongly denies those plans. Makes one wonder why the Dutch Mod denies plans made up by political parties.

Because there is a distinction between plans, studies, options, ideas and decisions. It is only real news when the phase of decision is reached.

That is the job of the MoD: to figure out all facts and options and let Minister choose an option and then let the ruling parties make a decision.

[aviodromefriend]

If we go for further cuts: Why not go for:

312 moves to KB as part of the international cooperation agreed between Belgium and the Netherlands taking the Dutch nuclear tasks with them
313 chopped
close Volkel
and we have one base less that has the problems about anti-nuclear activists and the US can cut back on guarding the nukes due to one base serving the nuclear tasks of two bases. Just a thought.

[nils]

as a Belgian, i might have any say in this, but i would advise the Klu to dump the F-35 and buy something cheaper (Gripen-NG for exsample) instead.
Belgium has also expressed intrest in the F-35, but the name Gripen has been rumored more and more nowadays.
if course, Belgian and Dutch politicians share one thing they have in common, the lack of common sence.

but seriously, do we really need JSF for QRA and homeland defence?

[Arjan]

Don't think that buying cheaper aircraft will mean that we will procure more aircraft in the end. If they downscale our airforce to 42 F-35's they will most likely downscale it to 42 Gripen/Eurofighters as well otherwise there will be no saving!

[Stephan Lodewijks]

Ofcourse it's a very serious subject, but I couldn't help but laughing at this google translation that was shown in another topic here at scramble.nl:

"We call people within the Royal Air Force at all levels to respond towards politicians, influence on local and provincial departments of political organizations, electoral programs:
- The demolition of the Royal Air Force to stop
- Leeuwarden must remain open
- There should be considered an appropriate level of ambition in Netherlands
- And a matching yacht racing component of sufficient size
- Feasible and affordable for the long term"

It would surprise me VERY much if a "yacht racing component" - even in a most "sufficient size" - would contribute even the slightest to our land's security

Sorry, back to the seriousness of this topic...

Stephan

[Pete]

Ofcourse it's a very serious subject, but I couldn't help but laughing at this google translation that was shown in another topic here at scramble.nl:


It would surprise me VERY much if a "yacht racing component" - even in a most "sufficient size" - would contribute even the slightest to our land's security

Sorry, back to the seriousness of this topic...

Stephan

Perhaps they were referring to the future of the Royal Netherlands Navy. ( after the next elections )

Regards Pete

[PilotoRico]

Closing a MOB is not a bad idea, it saves a lot of money actually...as long as a few reserve airbases are available there is no real problem.

But looking at the "news", I don't think this is actually news. I know people at the MoD are studying all kinds of reductions and base closures plus cooperation, but as far as I am aware, options are worked on, and nothing is decided.

Everybody knows that the KLu will not be able to get 85 airframes of whatever type. So this "leaked" news is nothing other then the already known issues. Same counts for the transport fleet and Eindhoven: all options are being studied (including basing aircraft in other countries) but again, no decisions yet.

I agree with Coati. As I already wrote down some (long) time ago.... the fact that we will never ever buy more then 45 F-35's (and even that number is not 100% sure due increasing cost of development) it is not possible to maintain two air bases operational for such a small fleet. As we know, several aircraft will be in US for training purpose, some under maintenance so perhaps 30 left! In the times we live in it is just not possible to maintain one "sleeping base" with the size of Leeuwarden (or Volkel). The vision of the future of the KLu is more different then it was 20 years ago... Face the fact.

Cheers

[atla]

First there is one big question? Why doing so difficult? The USA is going to upgrade 400 F16's to V-standard instead of buying F35's.
Why not join them in that program?
What is good enough for the USA, is certainly good enough for the NL.

Then, how much planes do you really need?
2 QRA (with another 2 for back-up). 4 in an UN-mission, 4 in Tigermeet/FF/FWIT, 10 for national defense, 8 training in the USA.
And the remaining 12 for maintenance, upgrade etc. =42
And we do have Gilze Rijen as back-up.

Let's make three squdrons of 20 new F16V = 60 totaal. 1 air defense squadron at LW, together with the navy helicopters from the Kooij, and two air-to ground squadrons at Volkel. You save an enourmous amount of money, and have more than enough planes for UN missions, exercises etc.
It's not so difficult.

[SquAdmin]

@Atla, when has the USAF decided to upgrade its F-16's to V-standard instead of buying F-35A's? I've never read anything about this and a decision like that would definitely kill the JSF-program.