F-35 Lightning II developments
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- Coati
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Re: F-35 Lightning II JSF developments
I certainly care! Thanks Tally!
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- Wijgert IJlst
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Re: F-35 Lightning II JSF developments
Interesting (Dutch article) about the JSF and her alternatives:
http://www.nu.nl/politiek/3387149/genoe ... e-jsf.html
http://www.nu.nl/politiek/3387149/genoe ... e-jsf.html
Kind Regards / Groeten,
Wijgert IJlst
Wijgert IJlst
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Re: F-35 Lightning II JSF developments
Yeah maybe if you can freaking read Dutch.....Wijgert IJlst wrote:Interesting (Dutch article) about the JSF and her alternatives:
http://www.nu.nl/politiek/3387149/genoe ... e-jsf.html
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Re: F-35 Lightning II JSF developments
I don't blame you for not being able to.Jmillsf18 wrote: Yeah maybe if you can freaking read Dutch.....
http://translate.google.com/ gives a more than decent translation.
Hans.
- Flyboy
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Re: F-35 Lightning II JSF developments
A pity though that the mentioned price of the F-35 is two to three times to low quoted according to the latest estimates. The information is not accurate in this respect which make me wonder about the other aircraft...Wijgert IJlst wrote:Interesting (Dutch article) about the JSF and her alternatives:
http://www.nu.nl/politiek/3387149/genoe ... e-jsf.html
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- Richard from Rotterdam
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Re: F-35 Lightning II JSF developments
One fighter that is missing in all comparisons is the F-16. On the one hand I can imagine that Lockheed doesn't actively promote this to Western countries, only to the 3rd world these days, but the proposed F-16V would tick quite a few boxed I think. Especially with the Dutch minister of defence publicly stating that her doors (the ones to her ministry) are wide open for any fighter producing company to propose alternatives for the JSF.
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Re: F-35 Lightning II JSF developments
Cost of operation (Benchmarking).
Cost of operation is crusial. The investment is important, but most crusial is the cost of operation.
JAS39 Gripen cost about 5000 $ per hour to operate, but Eurofighter/Rafale about 20000 $ per hour and F-35 over 30000 $ per hour (not finished). Then the F-35 begins to operate becomes the cost of operations certainly higher, maybe around 40000 $ per hour (8 times higher than Gripen according Janes).
Janes have made a cost of the operation per hour for following aircraft.
(including all costs inclusive investment, equipment and fuel costs).
JAS39 Gripen 4700 $ / hour
Rafale 16500 $ / hour
Eurofighter 18000 $ / hour
F-35 21-31000 $ / hour (certainly higher then combat ready).
And the Russians have a couple of research projects with their radars to overcome the stealth solustions. (Look at Earth Goggle). See what happened with the F-117 after the Kosovo shut down.
Cost of operation is crusial. The investment is important, but most crusial is the cost of operation.
JAS39 Gripen cost about 5000 $ per hour to operate, but Eurofighter/Rafale about 20000 $ per hour and F-35 over 30000 $ per hour (not finished). Then the F-35 begins to operate becomes the cost of operations certainly higher, maybe around 40000 $ per hour (8 times higher than Gripen according Janes).
Janes have made a cost of the operation per hour for following aircraft.
(including all costs inclusive investment, equipment and fuel costs).
JAS39 Gripen 4700 $ / hour
Rafale 16500 $ / hour
Eurofighter 18000 $ / hour
F-35 21-31000 $ / hour (certainly higher then combat ready).
And the Russians have a couple of research projects with their radars to overcome the stealth solustions. (Look at Earth Goggle). See what happened with the F-117 after the Kosovo shut down.
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Re: F-35 Lightning II JSF developments
That is actually the most unbelievable part. She (the minister) claims that they need to make a "validated vision"on what the purpose of the armed forces is in the future and the role of the airforce. Depending on that they will state the requirements of the new jet. You bet that all the information given prior to that moment will be used to make a new monopoly for the F-35.Richard from Rotterdam wrote:One fighter that is missing in all comparisons is the F-16. On the one hand I can imagine that Lockheed doesn't actively promote this to Western countries, only to the 3rd world these days, but the proposed F-16V would tick quite a few boxed I think. Especially with the Dutch minister of defence publicly stating that her doors (the ones to her ministry) are wide open for any fighter producing company to propose alternatives for the JSF.
So First new "validated vision", Then requirement for new jets and after that the new proposals, If you jump in to early, youre scre...[censored]
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Re: F-35 Lightning II JSF developments
Funny, my interpretation on the item from Nieuwsuur is that even the liberal party, the most staunch F-35 supporter in politics is creating an exit out of the JSF program right now, stating that it will never accept the other services having to suffer from any fighter purchase.Flyboy wrote:You bet that all the information given prior to that moment will be used to make a new monopoly for the F-35.
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Jan Maarten Smeets, Heerenveen 31 oktober 2009
Jan Maarten Smeets, Heerenveen 31 oktober 2009
- Coati
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Re: F-35 Lightning II JSF developments
hammarö wrote:Cost of operation (Benchmarking).
Cost of operation is crusial. The investment is important, but most crusial is the cost of operation.
JAS39 Gripen cost about 5000 $ per hour to operate, but Eurofighter/Rafale about 20000 $ per hour and F-35 over 30000 $ per hour (not finished). Then the F-35 begins to operate becomes the cost of operations certainly higher, maybe around 40000 $ per hour (8 times higher than Gripen according Janes).
Janes have made a cost of the operation per hour for following aircraft.
(including all costs inclusive investment, equipment and fuel costs).
JAS39 Gripen 4700 $ / hour
Rafale 16500 $ / hour
Eurofighter 18000 $ / hour
F-35 21-31000 $ / hour (certainly higher then combat ready).
And the Russians have a couple of research projects with their radars to overcome the stealth solustions. (Look at Earth Goggle). See what happened with the F-117 after the Kosovo shut down.
This subject actually belongs in the praethuys section, but the numbers you are showing are not comparable.
From F-16.net (with thanks to "m") about your stated numbers from Janes: Know the figures by Janes, but these figures give no indication at all what a jet really costs per flying hour. Cost per flying hour will differ by country as well .. personnel costs, taxes etc.
Calculated the rough Swiss figures for a Gripen E, some $27,000 per flying hour in percentages. As well compared these figures in same percentages with the cost of a F16 MLU / RNLAF & BAF (Theoretically .. different countries).
Cost per flying hour US 16C/D: some $23,000 per flying hour
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopi ... t-165.html
It looks like the same discussion about combat radius, in which Saab claims a very lage radius, but it turned out to be for a A2A mission with a huge belly tank.
Your claims about Russians overcoming stealth is obviously propaganda, please explain why they are trying to build their own stealth aircraft when this is a dead end anyway.
Last edited by Coati on 03 Apr 2013, 21:56, edited 2 times in total.
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- Coati
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Re: F-35 Lightning II JSF developments
I think it is a reality check for the complete fighter purchase. The amount of money reserved fro the purchase is never enough for a substantial number of fighters. 4.5B euros? With the latest price known from the Korean fighter competition (144 million euro per F-35A as an export price for aircraft, spares, sims etc) that will be sufficient for 31 aircraft. But also with the other types more than 45 aircraft at the max will not fit, since all fighters purchases will be in the range of 100-150 M per aircraft when looking at the total price (and not flyaway costs or unit costs or whatever).aviodromefriend wrote:Funny, my interpretation on the item from Nieuwsuur is that even the liberal party, the most staunch F-35 supporter in politics is creating an exit out of the JSF program right now, stating that it will never accept the other services having to suffer from any fighter purchase.Flyboy wrote:You bet that all the information given prior to that moment will be used to make a new monopoly for the F-35.
Please keep the subject to JSF developments instead of discussing.
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Re: F-35 Lightning II JSF developments
Coati wrote:Please keep the subject to JSF developments instead of discussing.
(bold edited by me)Forum rules wrote:Forum for news and discussions on miltary aviation matters.
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Jan Maarten Smeets, Heerenveen 31 oktober 2009
Jan Maarten Smeets, Heerenveen 31 oktober 2009
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Re: F-35 Lightning II JSF developments
The number of 30 F-35's is what Clingendeal mentioned the maximum the Netherlands could purchase without compromising other armed forves. The VVD is in favour of purchasing these 30 this year. Very convenient if you can rule out competitors based on specs that they provide before the official requirement is send out. Mind the very sttong lobby of the Dutch industry!!!aviodromefriend wrote:Funny, my interpretation on the item from Nieuwsuur is that even the liberal party, the most staunch F-35 supporter in politics is creating an exit out of the JSF program right now, stating that it will never accept the other services having to suffer from any fighter purchase.Flyboy wrote:You bet that all the information given prior to that moment will be used to make a new monopoly for the F-35.
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- Richard from Rotterdam
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Re: F-35 Lightning II JSF developments
According to the latest figures, of the 4.5 billion euro that was reserved for the JSF purchase by the Netherlands, only 4,05 Billion is still available. Put against the currently known "price" for the F-35, this means that only 27 can be purchased.
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Re: F-35 Lightning II JSF developments
Well, we already have two jsfs so 28 will be enough.
If we spend less on the jsf, will thus influence the orders for stork?
If we buy another aircraft, what will happen with stork?
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If we spend less on the jsf, will thus influence the orders for stork?
If we buy another aircraft, what will happen with stork?
[ Post made via Mobile Device ]
Greetings,
Piet Luijken
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Piet Luijken
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